Big issues this week are the fact that the Hawks, Carlton, Port & Essendon failed to cement their top 8 chance with losses & again tanking will be questioned as several teams kicked themselves out of the game.
Fev and Brown are leading the Coleman race with two goals separating them.
Collingwood defeated Carlton by 54 points
This was one of those 8 point games (quite a few of them this weekend). Carlton wins and they get equal on points with Collingwood, loose and the four teams below them get a chance to knock them out (if they had won). The result? Carlton lost percentage and Collingwood gained percentage as they look to lock away fourth spot.
This game showed the difference between the two sides, Collingwood rarely rely on anyone to win a game while the Blues rely on Judd & Fevola to kick a winning score (Fevola scores over 30% of Carltons score for the season). However much Collingwood payed the goal umpire to injury Fevola it was the match winning move.
Leon Davis continues to improve and in the last two seasons he has gone from strength to strength and now must be an A lister player after his nightmare Grand Finals against Brisbane. His two amazing boundary goals and work effort was the difference in an error riddled game where Carlton kicked 16 points (and 4 goals) and apart from the first & fourth quarters where Collingwood kicked 11 goals, they also played very indifferent football.
Geelong defeated Hawthorn by 1 point
This was another contender for the game of the season and lets hope we continue to see games like this. It had everything and if Bartel missed, I am sure both supporters would have been happy with a draw.
Both teams would be happy with aspects of the game while both coaches would be unhappy at the same time. Hawthorn would not be happy with a missed opportunity to sneak into 8th spot and that they let Geelong get back into the game after a 28 point lead. Geelong would not be happy with their inability to kick a winning score and the injury worries with Scarlett & Taylor likely to miss a few games.
For Geelong Selwood was awesome, Hawkins continued to improve & Corey improved to make the difference in the last half. For Hawthorn Buddy kicked another 5 goals, Hodge was kept quite & frustrated by Ling. Last year it was Geelong who kicked inaccurately and this time it was Hawthorn with Buddy, Rioli & Kennedy all missing shots in the last quarter.
Fremantle defeated West Coast by 5 points
I think this round is proof that teams do not spend enough time on their goal kicking. West Coast had 5 extra shots at goals but with 3-4 posters they where unable to kick a goal and they lost the game. While Fremantle’s senior players where the better of the day (Sandilands 30 possessions, 31 hit-outs & eight clearances, Pavlich 36 possessions & nine inside 50s & Hasleby 33 possessions). Again Fremantle has several injury worries with Ruffles, Peake, Duffield & McPharlin injured.
Haselby has made a fantastic return to Football after his ACL with another 30+ possession game
Its safe to that players do not tank that even with them playing bad football, they do try. However the question about tanking should maybe be labeled at the coaches & board members.
St Kilda defeated Western Bulldogs by 55 points
What happened to the Dogs? Did I again under estimate the Saints or did I over estimated the Dogs? Apart from the 3rd quarter where they 3 goals to 1 goal, the Dogs where outplayed, out ran, pressured to stupidity & did not look like a top 4 side at all. Collingwood, Adelaide & Brisbane are now equal on points to the Dogs (see ladder below).
Minson again failed when playing down forward & the Dogs need a tall marking forward, this game again showed why.
St Kilda kicked 5 goals in the second quarter to open up the game and when the Dogs kicked within 3 goals at 3/4 time, they gave the game back to the Sainters by having 19 men on the ground. Injury worries to Murphy & Higgins will worry coach Eade. Down at the Sainters they again played and pressured the game to perfection. This week we will examine why the Saints are so good.
Brisbane defeated North Melbourne by 41 points
Brown kicked 8 goals and got him ahead of the Coleman medal with Fevola, Brown, Riewoldt & Buddy all within one bag of 8 goals.
Black (30) and Power (26) just kept getting possessions, while the rucking and around-the-ground work of Mitch Clark who simply must be one of the most improved players of the year. Laidley’s whipping boy C Jones kicked 4 goals to be the Roos only focal point up forward. While the 40 point win was a good percentage topper, the win by Adelaide saw them to slip to 6th with .60% separating the two teams.
Sydney defeated Melbourne by 18 points
This was yet another game where the inaccuracy of a teams goal kicking was an issue with Melbourne having two extra score shots than Sydney but going down by 3 goals as Melbourne kicked 14 points with Miller & Jurrah being the main culprits.
7.3 thousand supporters turned out to see the game and it will be interesting to see what the AFLs reaction on that number.
Jolly again put up his arm for AA selection with 26 hitouts & 3 goals. Others for the Swans who stared where: McVeigh (31), O’Keefe (25), Shaw (29) and Grundy (26) all prominent. Morton for the Demons kept Goodes quite & Davey with 22 possessions along with Mooney (21), Bruce (21) & Petterd(20) provided midfield possessions but the inability to kick a goal meant that Sydney did what they pleased.
Richmond defeated Essendon by 5 points
This was the upset of the round and another 8 point game where Essendon could have been equal on premiership points to Carlton and all Richmond had to look forward to was the farwell parties of certain Richmond players at Mad Monday. However Richmond put aside their round 16 draw and came out with a fast first half, Essendon managed to kick two goals in the last two minutes of the 2nd quarter to get within 16 points.
In the 3rd quarter Essendon even managed to get back in front but on the back of Riewoldt (6 goals) who played his best game for the Tigers. Cousins, Deledio, Cotchin & Nahas where the among the best for Richmond while Essendon struggled to have winners with Ryder, Prismall & Welsh the best.
Burton kicked 4 in his 2nd game back from his ACL.
A worry for Essendon continues to be their forward line with Lucas & Lloyd (2 goals between them) & the injuries to Lloyd and several players looking tired.
Adelaide defeated Port Adelaide by 70 points
Port came into this match knowing that a win would see them in the top 8, a game clear off Essendon & the Hawks, so they everything to play for. Adelaide came into the game knowing that a win would see them equal 3rd. So on top of the fact that this was a “Showdown”, you would expect a blockbuster of a game.
Adelaide ruined this with a 7 goal to 0 2nd quarter, it was a return to form by the Crows who had a football lesson last week with Burton kicking 4, Knights 3 & Goodwin, McLeod, Tippett & Doughty kicking two each. Apart from Gray who kicked 3, their forward line failed with the pressure by Bock, Rutten & Johncock.
Injuries to Ports C Cornes, Surjan, Chaplin, Boak & Brogan will be a worry for the Power as they still are with a slight chance of making the finals but their percentage is shocking and they either need to win big or win an extra game than Essendon and Hawthorn.
Finals Contenders after Round 17
- St Kilda – 68 points, 170.04%
- Geelong – 60 points, 136.26%
- Western Bulldogs – 44 points, 123.70%
- Collingwood – 44 points, 115.62%
- Brisbane – 44 points, 111.89%
- Adelaide – 44 points, 111.39%
- Carlton – 36 points, 108.34%
- Essendon – 32 points, 100.94%
- Hawthorn – 32 points, 93.03%
- Port Adelaide – 32 points, 90.90%
Round 17 Talking Points
Please give us your thoughts in the comments section below or add your own round 16 talking points. The questions will asked in bold and my response will be un-bold under them.
Your input and comments help us make Kick2Kick a better website, so please express your opinions.
- Can St Kilda go through undefeated?
- Apart from a game down at Tasmania against Hawthorn in round 19 & unless they have a brain freeze they should win the rest of their games easily.
- Have we over rated the Bulldogs who are now only in 3rd place by percentage.
- I rated the Dogs to win against the Saints, they had pace & I thought a game plan to challenge the Saints and Boy was I wrong. Again the fact that they have no tall forward option showed as their forward structure sucked.
- Is it time that players practice more at goal kicking with 11 teams kicking at 60% or worse at goals this weekend?
- This is one of my biggest issues with the current game, they spend way too much time focusing on everything else besides one of the simplest and important skills and that is to kick a goal.
- Who will win the Coleman Medal with 8 goals separating Fevola, Brown, Buddy & Riewoldt?
- I’m tipping Brown with Bradshaw out with injury and him probably playing more full forward than usual. Fevola has looked sore all year & Buddy is a chance but he may have left his run too late.
- Can Essendon make the finals as they look tired, injured and have an interesting race home to the finals?
- Like I said in the race home to the finals, I’ve tipped Essendon to miss out..
- 5 weeks left of the regular season and who is your fancy for the Brownlow? (Brownlow winners trivia)
- I think Ablett jnr again will miss out but in looking at the season, I do not see any real stand out. If Ablett wins, he would be the first player to miss 3 or more games to injury and win the Brownlow in almost 20 years.
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July 27th, 2009 at 8:20 pm
ok i am going to have one final say on this issue of the Bulldogs forward line. Mark Robinson, Mike Sheahan and Jermayn have all come to the conclusion that the Dogs need a ‘power’ forward but to me it all seems about as predictable as a two headed tasmanian joke or kiwis and their sheep. the reality is it’s just not true. numbers do not tell the whole story but i will throw a few out there. Jermayn questioned whether he overestimated the Dogs or underestimated the Saints, the answer will become pretty clear.
Fact 1: Dogs had scored 100 plus points in the 10 weeks leading up to the St.Kilda game including against 2nd, 3rd and 5th ranked defensive teams (haven’t played 4th best defence yet) Inside 50′s and scoring is not a problem.
Fact 2: Bulldogs attack ranked second across 17 rounds(behind geelong) for second season in a row.
Fact 3: Spread of goalkickers amongst top 6 teams:
Bris- 3 over 10goals, 3 over 20goals; unhealthy reliance on Brown or Bradshaw to kick them home; ala saturday night.
Ade- 2 over 10gls, 4 over 20gls; not enough options, have been smashed by Saints(twice), Cats, Dogs, Lions
Coll- 6 over 10gls, 3 over 20gls; good spread, no dominating force
Geel- 9 over 20gls; not reliant on anyone…ever. ask N.Ablett, Lonergan, Hawkins, Gamble. It doesn’t matter who stands there.
St.K- 5 over 10, 4 over 20; healthy but Riewoldt irreplaceable
WB- 8 over 10, 6 over 20; power forward would change the entire direction and structure of the team, don’t fix what ain’t broke.
So would Barry Hall have made a difference on Sat nite??? No, he too would have been frustrated at the supply and probably would have whacked someone. So lets look at the Saints then…
Fact 1: Have not conceded 100 points this season. Only teams to have kicked 75+ have been, Carl, Geel, Bris and the Dogs.
Fact 2: Have laid over 1200 tackles, Cats 1100, other top 6 teams; 1000-1100.
Fact 3: As a direct correlation to the above stat, Saints and Cats have Free kicks in the positive of 50 odd. Other 4 teams, line ball or in the negative.
Fact 4: Saints have used just 27 players, all other teams in top 6;30+
I wrote the pre-season guide to the Saints and had them labelled as the worst side to ever finish top4 and further away from a premiership then any other team. It could prove (has it already?) to be the worst call in history yet i still cannot believe that a team that contains players as ordinary as Eddy, McQualter, Jones, McEvoy, R.Clarke, Gwilt, Baker, Blake and Geary not to mention discarded players Ray, Schneider, Gardiner, King, Dempster, Dawson and Gram sits on top of the table undefeated. Which begs the question how are they so bloody good?
The answer…Ross Lyon. My theory is that he has 7 or 8 absolute quality players that are as good at what they do as anyone in the league and then he has about 14 taggers whose sole job is to tackle, harrass, create space, sheperd and make life hard for the opposition and easier for their superstars.
So how do you beat them?? 17 times teams have tried this year and failed. I think you have to play them at their own game. man on man all over the ground, have about 13 or 14 blokes who tag their best 13 or 14 and rely on your match winners to get you home. The other thing that seems to work is teams that run hard and play risky football. Essendon, Carlton and Brisbane are all up and coming teams who throw caution to the wind and nearly got home against the Saints and likewise when the Cats were five goals down they ran in waves, played on at all costs and nearly pinched it.
I think the Saints will go through undefeated during the H&A season but then something wonderful happens; the real season starts and all 8 teams are on no wins. I hope the Dogs play the Saints in the first week of the finals at the M.C.G because i will be more then confident that a) the saints will not be able to eat up so much space at ‘G (and they only play once their this year)and b) our running game suits that very same ground so very well. (and it won’t matter who stands in the goalsquare.)
The bigger the saints bubble gets the more devestating it will be IF it bursts and all the while there is absolutely no pressure on a team that is timing their run to absolute perfection. Their key players are ready and rested and there will be no Hawthorn to surprise the Cats this year…
July 28th, 2009 at 9:10 am
Good to see you again Deano!
So I wont focus on that but rather your points about the Dogs forward line.
You raise some very good points and actually stole some of my thunder for an up and coming post about why St Kilda are so good this year
In all four quarters the Dogs struggled down forward, it was obvious that due to the pressure they where under, they could not kick a winning score. This usually happens in the finals and you guys have been exposed there before (why you picked up ex-crow Welsh) & it happened again against the Saints and the before against Collingwood. The big scores you got before that where mainly against bottom sides.
Through the pressure you where placed under, the midfielders had to drop back and the forward line had to go up to the midfield and this left your forward line empty and without any structure at all. So when you got the ball, you had no one to kick too and when you where able to kick to someone it was either a small target against Hudghton, Blake or Fisher or Minson who spilled several gettable marks. I’m not saying you need Hall (personally I would aim for someone else) but you need someone else so you have another string to the options down forward. The forward line is too one dimensional, The Dogs have no back up plan down forward, yes your looking forward to Cordy, Grant or Roughead to be that option but two of those are ruckmen first & forwards second, you need to recruit KP forwards.
I can safely say you will NOT win a premiership without one. In the mean time, players like West, Smith have retired and Johnson will be next all because your team cannot understand the need for a forward…
July 29th, 2009 at 10:04 am
Once again the only thing that will end this debate is a premiership cup and unlike about 12 other clubs,for the second the second year in a row, the dogs are right up there giving themselves every chance.
the one thing i will admit is that lacking a tall forward probably gives us one less option in what is otherwise a pretty flawless team. do i think it will cost us a premiership…No. Why? Because on our day we are capable of beating anyone including St.Kilda (who we thumped twice last year), Geelong and Collingwood. I think the biggest hurdle that stands in our way is stage fright, we saw it against the Hawks in last years finals, against the Cats in the Prelim when we could not convert our chances in the 3rd and 4th quarters and after watching the Saints game again last night it happened again. Lake after swallowing everything that came his way in the previous month drops 3 easy marks, one that gives up an easy goal, Minson drops 2 simple marks inside 50, Griffen and Higgins fumbling under no pressure and kicking poorly plus Morris and Harbrow playing on under direct pressure says to me that we were not switched on mentally and were forced to play catch up all night, you just cant do that against a team as committed and team orientated as the Saints.
July 29th, 2009 at 10:13 am
and that imo is the problem, when you are under pressure like against the Saints or in Finals (we agree that pressure goes up in finals?) it gives you another option when you cannot pin point the ball.
St Kilda is a much different team last year than this year (think that is obvious). Lake had the footy record curse (everyone featured has a bad game) and yes your start was an issue, likewise for Collingwood but the pressure from the Saints is a huge key and to win finals and the premiership, you need to be able to soak it in.
I do not think personally its the mental side of things, more that they cannot handle the pressure. For your sake I hope I am wrong though..
July 31st, 2009 at 1:48 pm
just remember that a KPP is a player that can be easily shut down if a) your full back is good enough and b) your defence helps you out, if that team also has a lack of other options then that spells big trouble.
Example: Dogs played Hawks a few weeks ago and Lake and Morris kept Roughie and Buddy to 2 goals between them, with no other options they were duly flogged to the point of being goalless at halftime and beaten by 88 points. The following week the same two defenders kept Cloke and Anthony to zero goals yet the pies were still able to score 100 plus points on the back of an efficient midfield and adaptable forward line.
Here are some of the Dogs team stats
1st in league for Goals
2nd for inside 50′s
4th for marks
5th for contested marks
5th for marks inside 50
We also have 5 forwards in the top 50 for contested marks inside 50m.(Saints and Cats each have 2) And thats not including Minson who ranks in the top 50 for contested marks total but spends a fair amount of time in both the ruck and forward line.
i don’t think i can make it any more black and white then that, stats don’t lie and i think you are underestimating a damn good football side. only time will tell whether they are good enough in September but i am adamant that IF they fail it will not be because of a lack of a KPP…
July 31st, 2009 at 3:19 pm
Yes KPP can be shut down and just having a good KPP does not equal success, ie your example of the Hawks and Collingwood but you also have Brisbane & Carlton who had two Coleman medalists but didn’t make the finals those years.
KPP just gives you another option and another game option when your main one is not working due to poor form or by pressure (everything is exposed at finals).
Those stats you gave are very similar as last year but come finals it did not equal goals and scoring opportunities. Last year and against St Kilda in round 17, you got the ball into the 50m arch enough.
Also can I ask who the 5 forwards are for contested marks? Also where do they take majority of these? 0m to 40m out where they can kick a goal or 50m+ out? Big difference taking a contested mark inside and outside the 50m arch.
My last point is that I think this problem could be solved if you played Williams down forward instead.
.-= Jermayn´s last blog ..Karmichael Hunt and the AFL =-.
July 31st, 2009 at 5:10 pm
Stats are for contested marks inside 50m. Hill, Johnson, Welsh, Murphy and Hahn, Not one contested mark between the five of them on sat nite though, but before you start saying i told you so Riewoldt did not take one contested mark for the game either, yet worked his ass off on the ground to get his 5. You are being to harsh on last years group Jerm, Hill, Harbrow, Higgins, Addison, Callan, Tiller, Ward, Hahn, Murphy had all never played in a finals series before then throw in guys like Cooney, Griffen, Lake, Hargrave, Morris, Boyd, Cross, Gilbee, Gia who had only the one finals experience before last year. You have to understand that those guys started their careers at a rough time for the Dogs and have been very starved of success of course they are going to struggle under pressure for a while just like the Cats(Remember Nick Davis) and Saints(gifted the swans a GF) both did in the early 00′s before coming back a more ‘complete’ side.
I don’t really care if you or anyone else believes it but i’m really proud of the way the Dogs have improved in almost every facet of the game, we used to be a laughing stock with the way we tackled and with our contested footy and clearances but now we are right up there with the best. Last year is last year and despite the win/loss ratio looking worse we are a much better team then last year. 3 of the 4 teams that finished top4 last year have saddled up again and occupied a place in the top4 for the majority of this year, which is a very good sign for us, It’s just a shame that the team that couldn’t back it up was the team that pinched the flag last year. Timing is everything and i am reticent to write off any team that works their way into the top4 because as we saw from last year, anything can and usually does happen.
August 3rd, 2009 at 11:47 am
Thanks for the stats Deano! To be honest I am surprised!!
I agree that you have improved from last year and the players you mentioned will be much better after last years final series.
Have to agree with this as well and its a pity they’ve peaked when Hawthorn, Geelong & St Kilda also peaked. If they peaked at another time, they well could have won a few more premierships…