17 Comments For This Post

1. Geoff Matheson Says:
   September 14th, 2009 at 9:39 am

   I hate Collingwood as much as the next person, but the rear camera angle showed that the umpires had to pay the free kick. I actually think that Tippett’s free up the other end for holding the man (which likewise could have decided the game) was probably more marginal, but just there. “Letting the game flow” is a nice ideal, but you can’t have it allowing defenders to get away with murder.
   Geoff Matheson´s last blog ..Bowden Bowin’ out

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2. Jermayn Says:
   September 14th, 2009 at 9:44 am

   But what angle did the umpire see the contest? Did they see it from the back (the angle your talking about) or did they see front on?

   Interesting to see if this game was Collingwood’s “Grand Final” and what impact the loss will have on Adelaide.

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3. Deano Says:
   September 14th, 2009 at 4:42 pm

   what???no question marks over the brisbane forward line or lack there of? i guess it is only popular to pick apart the dogs because of their lack of a key forward yet despite the fact that brisbane have two of the best they were comprehensively beaten. where is the spanish inquisition into brisbane’s obvious issues?? bradshaw and brown kicked 6 between them and the rest of the side could only manage two, both brilliant solo efforts. until the day that bradshaw and brown can kick 15 between them(not gonna happen because they are lake and morris’ bitches) against us then they will continue to have a long and barren stretch against the boys in red,white and blue.

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4. Jermayn Says:
   September 14th, 2009 at 5:18 pm

   Deano mate, I am thinking your now starting to have a vendetta against us

   As discussed countless times, you need more than just KPP forwards, you need a whole team that you can build on top/ around of them. Brisbane have some great A lister players (Black and Power) in the midfield but after them the quality drops quickly and players like Johnstone, Rich, Harding etc have a distance between their best and worst.

   To win finals you need a quality even side with more than just 5-6 guys you rely on.

   Also 6 of the 22 where in their 1st or 2nd year. How many Dogs are in their 1st or 2nd year being on the list?

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5. Mike Says:
   September 14th, 2009 at 6:19 pm

   firstly jermayn, have you seen the replay for the free kick to Anthony? how can you not say that is a clear free kick. i’m sorry but you are 100% wrong in saying that it was a 50/50 decision. Rutten was holding Anthony’s arm and prevented him from jumping and making a contest. i agree there would be nothing better than the umps letting 50/50 decisions go, but that was not a 50/50 and the umpire was 100% right and should be congratualated for making the right decision. (by the way imo they did a damn good job all night for once)

   secondly i don’t think Brisbane were actually that bad. the midfield did get smashed in the clearances but around the ground they were (for 3 quarters) almost just as good as the dogs. where they fell down horribly was in their forward line. the bulldogs completely shut down brown and bradshaw after quarter time and they only managed 6 goals between them. KPPs can be important but are not the key to premiership success.

   and with the form of Lake and Morris i believe that they will be well able to shut down Kosi and Reiwoldt this friday.
   and i think if they have to bomb it in the forward line, one or two need to go up and two stay down to crumb, instead of all always going up.

   i honestly thought griffen was good on the weekend but he still hasn’t done enough to convince me that he deserves to stay. if i was making the decisions i would be moving him on and pursue someone for the forward line to add some firepower (and to finally shut jermayn up) lol
   Mike´s last blog ..Threadless Tshirt Giveaway at jaypeeonline.net

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6. Deano Says:
   September 15th, 2009 at 9:58 am

   i just love how you hover like a vulture waiting to pick at a rotting carcass, waiting for the dogs forward line to fall down so you can say ‘i told you so’(keep in mind how much everybody LOVES that guy). Yet when they do what you say they can’t which is stand up deep into september and deliver a result under the pressure of finals and force the oppositions forward line to become so dysfunctional that they only had FOUR goalkickers you offer none of your pearls of wisdom about Brisbane’s lack of forward structure and you still offer no kudos to a team that is in a position that 12 other clubs would kill to be in(for the second year in a row). Regardless of what happens on friday night i am so very proud of my boys in changing from one of the easiest midfields to beat into just about the best in the business, i think st.kilda have what it takes to beat the dogs and are a little more advanced at this stage(4th prelim in 6 years) but we are in with a shot and just like all season we will fight it out until the death. i look forward to you playing the ‘i was right’ card on monday morning should the dogs lose and hope you wear that badge with pride…

   “Also 6 of the 22 where in their 1st or 2nd year. How many Dogs are in their 1st or 2nd year being on the list?”

   Not sure what this has to do with anything considering i didn’t pick the brisbane side(they did have more experienced players available) and becomes all the more irrelevant when you consider what the young Collingwood blokes did on Saturday night…nice try though.

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7. Jermayn Says:
   September 15th, 2009 at 10:18 am

   You guys are missing the point and you are only reading everything with red, blue and white glasses. Take your glasses off and read what I (and others) are saying with a balanced non bias Doggie pov.

   I have never said Bulldogs will not win a final or make a prelim, I did say that they wont win a Premiership/ Grand Final without a KPP forward. There is a difference!

   The Bulldogs are a much more even balanced side than what Brisbane are (again if you read my comments/ post you would see this). Brisbane have some great A listers in the midfield and down forward but the quality drops off a lot after Black, Power, Brown & Bradshaw and as I have said before you cannot win a Premiership with an uneven reliance on your stars.

   The Dogs have a great balance side that will see them win finals but my only question mark on them is that they do not have a KPP forward. I realise you do not take this seriously but until a team wins a Premiership without one, I will not change my view as history suggests I am right.

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8. Mike Says:
   September 15th, 2009 at 1:04 pm

   @jerm.

   “You guys are missing the point and you are only reading everything with red, blue and white glasses. Take your glasses off and read what I (and others) are saying with a balanced non bias Doggie pov.”

   this coming from the most ignorant blinded bias person here?

   im not even going to bother arguing with you anymore. your too stubborn and arrogant to back down. i really hope the dogs win this year just so you can finally eat your own words and shut the heck up.

   if the bulldogs don’t win its not because their lack of a KPP. we didn’t lose to geelong for that reason (in last year’s prelim, or 09s qualifying) and it won’t ever be the reason

   we will lose if our midfield doesn’t take risks and if lake/morris fail to shut down kosi/reiwoldt. (and if we fail to kick accurately)
   Mike´s last blog ..Threadless Tshirt Giveaway at jaypeeonline.net

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9. Jermayn Says:
   September 15th, 2009 at 3:45 pm

   I see you are reverting to the argument of throwing mud when your loosing…

   You guys are failing to see what I am saying, I am NOT saying if you loose its just because of no KPP. I am saying in looking at history, no club for over 20 years has won without a KPP forward, that is a simple fact you cannot ignore!

   and again let me say it again, just because you have a KPP it does not mean you will win finals, Brisbane’s loss proves that. You need a balanced team with no passengers and Brisbane do not have this at the moment and that is why they lost!

   A KPP forward gives any team more options. The best example is West Coast in 2005 and 2006, the difference was Gardiner and Lynch and the fact that Lynch is a KPP forward and Gardiner is a ruckman.

   Yes Bulldogs are trying to win the premiership without a KPP forward but can they win one without a KPP? Personally imho no and only time will tell if they can or not.

   You can learn and predict from history and that is what I have based my opinion on.

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10. deano Says:
    September 15th, 2009 at 6:06 pm

    ok, let me just take my red,white and blue glasses off before i say anything, hey how come i still see the same??? might have to take them back to the optometerist, how are yours mike?? can i please just state some FACTS…

    1. The Dogs crushed the Lions in a Semi-Final at the ‘G holding them to 8 goals and just 4 measly goalkickers…
    *All season long after a loss you have questioned the Dogs forward structure and stated that they could not win a premiership without a KPP. Yet despite the Dogs making the Lions forward line look like a bunch of schoolgraders and exploiting their massive deficiencies not one word was mentioned about the Lions’ problems in the forward half of the ground.All i asked was why???

    2. You have never said that the Dogs could not win finals or make a prelim
    *This is true, however you have also said many times that the Dogs’ gameplan could not handle the pressure of september and that they would fall down when it mattered most. It reeks of hypocricy when after a week one loss you say ‘i told you so’ and then after a week two win you say ‘i didn’t say they couldn’t win finals’…all i stated was the fact that the Dogs are playing off for a GF for the second year in a row so they must be doing something right.

    3. “No club for over 20 years has won a flag without a KPP and that is a simple fact you cannot ignore and until a team wins a premiership without one i will not change my view”
    *Time to change your view son because the above statement is a lie. Darren Jarman was a magnificent footballer but a KPP he was not and neither was, sorry saints supporters, Shane Ellen. Both ripped the heart out of the saints and lead the Crows to their initial Premiership just 12 years ago.

    4. I don’t fling mud…

    5. Bias works two ways mate and your right, there is a hell of a lot of it going on here but it aint coming from me and it aint coming from Mike…hhmmm who’s left???

    Now, where did i put those damn glasses…

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    Jermayn Reply:
    September 16th, 2009 at 9:01 am

    I admit I may be biased at times but that is natural but however when your arguing about your team, we must learn to look at the stats and not be partial.

    First of all let me comment to Geoff:
    Yes the umpire made the right call but I personally hate an umpire decision determining the outcome of the game.

    @Deano:

    Yet despite the Dogs making the Lions forward line look like a bunch of schoolgraders and exploiting their massive deficiencies not one word was mentioned about the Lions’ problems in the forward half of the ground.All i asked was why???

    I commented on the fact that Brisbane may have two A grade midfielders (Rich, Johnstone & Brenean are not there yet) but after Power and Black the quality drops and with Black held quite, the Dogs dominated them in the midfield.

    you have also said many times that the Dogs’ gameplan could not handle the pressure of september and that they would fall down when it mattered most.

    Lets be realistic, Brisbane are not a real test. A real finals atmosphere finals game would be against St kilda this week and the game before in Geelong, Brisbane where just making up the numbers and lucky to get that far…

    Time to change your view son because the above statement is a lie. Darren Jarman was a magnificent footballer but a KPP he was not and neither was, sorry saints supporters, Shane Ellen. Both ripped the heart out of the saints and lead the Crows to their initial Premiership just 12 years ago.

    I thought you had me hear mate but in looking at the sides to refresh my memory, what about Mathew Robran at CHF and Pittman and Smart, I will admit Robran did not score goals in both games but from what I remember about him, he was a good contested mark who provided a target for the long kick.

    We all agree (I hope) you need an even balanced side with experience and no passengers to even compete for a premiership, right? Bulldogs have a great side and if it was not for Geelongs dominance the last 3 years, they probably would have played off in a GF by now. I am sure we can also agree that every team has a deficiency and in looking at history and the Dogs side I think they would be an even better side with someone who can provide a forward target. This may be Minson who can sit on the goal square and allow Aker, Higgins etc to feed off the contest but so far from what I have seen, he has failed to do this.

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11. deano Says:
    September 15th, 2009 at 6:25 pm

    p.s. for all the whingers out there who are stating how inexperienced the Lions were please remember that the game is won and lost in the midfield where the Lions had two triple premiership players, a norm smith medallist, a brownlow medallist, a number one draft pick, a rising star winner and another top five draft pick. plus they had the guy many tipped as the AA Ruckman tapping it down to them, yet the clearance count at one stage was 23-6. that is where the game was won and lost…

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12. Geoff Matheson Says:
    September 16th, 2009 at 7:16 am

    Jermayn: you’re saying you don’t want an umpire to pay a free kick, which a camera angle showed was clearly there, because you’re not sure that’s the angle the umpire had. Now I’m no umpire advocate, nor do I entertain any sympathies towards Collingwood, but surely we can cut the umpire some slack when he makes the right decision.
    Geoff Matheson´s last blog ..Bowden Bowin’ out

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13. Mike Says:
    September 16th, 2009 at 10:46 am

    @ Jermayn.
    yes it does suck when umpires decide games however he cannot be blamed because it was actaully Ben Rutten who decided the game by holding Anthony out of the game. the umpire would have decided the game no matter what he did. if he had of paid it (which he did obviously) collingwood could have won. if he didn’t pay it then collingwood would have been robbed of a clear free kick and probably lost the game. so what is he meant to do? more people are probably less angry because he at least did the right thing.

    one other point, he gave the free kick yes, but Anthony still had to convert, true? and the game wasn’t so much won by that kick, it was won because Collingwood played well and Adealaide couldn’t maintain their gameplan and their lead.

    in regards the Matthew Robran, he is hardly a CHF. Adelaide did not have a KPP in 97. i’m sorry but that is not an argument you can win.
    I have agreed all along that a KPP could be handy for the Bulldogs in the Coming years but i still hold my ground that we can win a GF without a KPP in the forward line.
    Preliminary Final 08: should have beaten geelong. after half time we kicked 2.7 to geelongs 4.3, which means we had 2 more scoring shots than they did and with the help of some bad umpiring and bulldogs inaccuracy geelong managed to make the GF.

    Qualifying Final 09: again, should have beaten geelong. we were monstered in the first quarter by geelong, but after quarter time, we kicked 10.9 to geelongs 8.7, which means we had 4 more scoring shots after quarter time, we had more of the ball but made more mistakes. we kicked 2 more goals than they did after quarter time, and in the last quarter we kicked 4.6 to 1.3 now if we could have kicked accurately (by changing 3 points to goals-which were very gettable goals i might add) then we would have won by a point. yes we didnt kick straight and we lost, but you cannot say that we lost because of lack of a KPP. i agree that it probably would have helped our cause but it was not the reason we lost.

    in saying all that i do still agree we should pursue a KPP for the forward line to strengthen our team. and i might point out that it seems Lloyd is to become available. maybe we should pursue him until one of our younger players can step up.
    Mike´s last blog ..Threadless Tshirt Giveaway at jaypeeonline.net

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14. Jermayn Says:
    September 16th, 2009 at 11:04 am

    @Mike – Do you even remember Matthew Robran? You where pretty young in ’97!!

    He played nearly 150 games and kicked over 100 goals playing second fiddle to Tony Modra for most of his career while averaging nearly two shots at goals a game including having to play ruck and a number of other positions. He is no Wayne Carey I agree but he was a target and he was selected in their “Team of the Decade”.

    Also I have NEVER said you have lost these finals because you had no KPP forward. I have said you would be a better team with one as when your under pressure, they are handy as a backup plan when you cannot pin point passes to your under sized forwards and can only bomb it long.

    The 09 Qualifying Final was a perfect example. In the first quarter you where under all sorts of pressure and in the last when Geelong flooded back you bombed it in long numerous times but Geelong managed to hold you guys back because Scartlett, Mackie, Harley etc had the edge in the air.

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15. Mike Says:
    September 16th, 2009 at 11:30 am

    “He played nearly 150 games and kicked over 100 goals playing second fiddle to Tony Modra for most of his career while averaging nearly two shots at goals a game including having to play ruck and a number of other positions.”

    there is the problem with your argument right there, he played ruck and a number of positions. he is not a KPP. so what if he was a target. when the dogs put minson down there he is a target, that does not mean he is a KPP.

    and yes you have NEVER said they lost because we had no KPP. but EVERYTIME we do lose you highlight it as our MAIN problem. and therefore you might as well be saying that we lost because we have no KPP.

    by the way have you noticed that even teams with KPPs struggle against geelong because of Scarlett, Mackie and Harley?
    Mike´s last blog ..Threadless Tshirt Giveaway at jaypeeonline.net

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16. Deano Says:
    September 16th, 2009 at 11:33 am

    1. pittman played chb
    2. robran played chf in an era where they played well up the ground(hence no goals) and was not the goalsquare target we have been arguing about.
    3. Nigel Smart was a flanker, bout the same size as a mitch hahn.
    4. Jarman and Ellen were the go to guys deep, there is no argument for that, they kicked 11 between them and were the difference on the day.

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    Jermayn Reply:
    September 17th, 2009 at 9:54 am

    Pittmen did not always play CHB, he did play forward as well.

    We are not just arguing about having a gorilla sit in the goal square (well i’m not), I am arguing that a KPP forward brings flexibility and another option. Robran yes played up the ground as a leading CHF (a lot like Riewoldt used to play) but he also gave Adelaide the option of playing him out of the goal square, which they did at times.

    My argument is he brings flexibility which what a KPP forward brings and I think this is what your side the Dogs lack. I only focus on this because from where I sit, its the only lack or weakness I see in the side as its a very good side (as much as that hurts me saying it).

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17. deano Says:
    September 17th, 2009 at 3:52 pm

    mike, you were right i give up too, this guy just doesn’t no defeat even when it is right in his face. Robran was NEVER a goalsquare option which is what we have been talking about. i was at the prelim the week before when the crows put all their smalls forward in the last quarter and got the result and they did the exact same thing to the saints, it created havoc because a guy like jamie shanahan had no one to match-up on. Pitmann was a backup ruckman for Rehn who plugged gaps amongst a lot of time on the pine.

    even if it not this year a team will win without a kpp sooner or later because there is a massive lack of quality talls coming through. the dogs have drafted 3 top 6 draft picks in the last 6 or 7 years(Walsh, Williams and Grant) and none have shone any promise. guys like gumbleton, mitch thorp, lachie hansen are the same and jack watts looks like being similar. they come in too skinny, get knocked around and lose confidence. that is why smaller guys like Porplyzia, le cras, morton, s.johnson and aker all lead their respective clubs goalkicking, footy has changed.

    for now i give up, jerm you win, just remember that some people regard stubborness as not such a great characteristic to have…

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    Jermayn Reply:
    September 18th, 2009 at 8:37 am

    Maybe this where your frustration is coming from. I am not arguing that you must have a KPP forward in the goal square. I am saying you must have one in the forward line, whether he plays deep or not depends on the game and team. These days no one stays in the same position and that is why Lloyd is struggling because he is one dimensional.

    With KPP forwards we all know they take an extra few years to mature. Some are quicker to develop than others like Buddy and Carey who have dominated at the age of 20 but very rarely does anyone dominate that early. Someone like Josh Kennedy for example has only showed he can hold down a spot at CHF in his 4th season.

    for now i give up, jerm you win, just remember that some people regard stubbornness as not such a great characteristic to have…

    Like I have said before, if you guys win the granny, I will admit that I was wrong that you can win a premiership without a KPP forward.

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