As is often the case at this time of year we are hearing almost daily reports on how certain teams are ‘tearing up the track’ and of high profile players ‘absolutely flying’. It is wonderful PR, sells memberships and gets supporters optimistic about there team’s chances in the year that lies ahead. One club who has been at the forefront of this sort of activity over the summer has been the once mighty Carlton Football Club.
During the off-season we have been told how Chris Judd has never looked better, how Murphy, Gibbs and Kreuzer will only get better with another pre-season under their belts and how Nick Stevens will be back to his very best. Carlton have even used the slogan “they know we’re coming” for their membership campaign. Pretty cocky stuff from a team that hasn’t contested a finals series since 2001.
John Elliot brought with cash a winning culture to Carlton in the 90s
Some, including me, would even say it is downright arrogant but what more would you expect from a club that raped and cheated the system for 8 seasons whilst looking down their noses at every other team in the competition. The disappointing thing is that there cause for optimism is completely warranted. The Blues have built an exciting team that played some quality football towards the end of season ’08 and I fully expect them to be right in the mix come September this year.
Which begs the question, were the penalties that Carlton received for breaching the salary cap between 1994 and 2001 enough?? I say no. So what price do you put on a Premiership Cup??
The Facts:
- The Carlton Football Club was put under serious investigation in 2002 after numerous breaches of the salary cap
- Carlton refused to co-operate with the AFL’s investigation.(Why not just hang a sign from Princes Park that says ‘We are guilty’?)
- They were found guilty of making ‘under the table’ payments to players; Silvagni, Bradley, Brown and O’Reilly.(All terrible players!)
- They were found to have categorically and systematically rorted the system between 1994 and 2001.
- During this period they had a win loss ratio of 111/65, contesting the finals in 6 of those 8 seasons.
- They played in 2 Grand Finals winning the Premiership in 1995
- After being found guilty they were fined an AFL record of $987,000 and excluded from the first two rounds of the National Drafts of 2002/2003.
- They were run by an entrepreneur who at the height of his business career was in charge of Elders who had $16 Billion worth of assets as well as a private jet, money was never an issue. At one point he labeled Essendon as cheating their way to the ’93 Premiership.(What’s that old saying about stones and glass houses??)
Since The Penalty:
- 2 Wooden Spoons
- Have not played finals
- Win/Loss Ratio of 38/114/2 draws
- 3 consecutive No#1 Draft picks
- 13 picks inside the top #20 (3 traded)
- Considerable bargaining power/position for uncontracted players
Some, especially Blues supporters, would argue that the club has suffered more than enough. I am a passionate Western Bulldogs supporter and feel that they have suffered not nearly enough. Carlton’s former president once described my club as having a ‘tragic history’. Well I would rather have a team full of honest battlers who played within the rules then cheat our way to a false sense of a ‘winning culture’.
The Dogs, like Carlton, contested finals in 6 of those 8 years, including both seasons that the Blues made the Grand Final. To this day it makes me sick to think that while my team was battling for ladder positions and honestly trying to make a Grand Final for the first time since 1961 we were competing against a team who was illegally breaching the rules and essentially had one or two extra players. The fact that they stand so close to potential glory once again makes me ill. Ask the supporters of the Saints, Demons, Cats, Swans, Dogs and Tigers whether 7 years is long enough.
In the last 6 years we have had 6 different premiership clubs and none by the super clubs including Carlton.
Whilst the AFL’s actions were swift and decisive and bought about immediate on-field penalties was it really enough when you consider that the AFL basically punished the Blues and sent them to the bottom of the ladder and then rewarded them with priority selections to re-build almost instantly.
My Punishment Suggestions
It is my belief that Carlton should have been stripped of all Priority and all Top 5 selections for 5 seasons and all No#1 picks for a further three in all forms of drafting. I’m interested in other peoples thoughts on what the penalty should have been.
As it stands now, Carlton have secured 9 players rated in the top 20 of their particular year, 3 of those were rated the best in the land, held bargaining position for West Coast/The Competition’s best player, Port Adelaide’s best midfielder and Freo’s best young Ruckman. If you cut out their top 5 selections and priorities it effectively stops this bargaining power.(Geelong built a Premiership list with no priorities or top 5 picks, it can be done!!)
Some will argue that my penalties are too tough but again I re-iterate. The now extinct Fitzroy had waited 52 years, The Dogs 54 and counting, The Demons 44 and counting, The Saints 42 and counting, The Cats waited 44 years and the Swans 72 years whilst ‘power clubs’ in Carlton, Collingwood, Essendon and Richmond played in Grand Final after Grand Final.
It is no coincidence that the richest clubs have also been the most successful, it is also no coincidence that since the AFL cracked down on cap breaches that the last 6 seasons have seen 6 different Premiers (no power clubs included). The AFL is as fair and even as it has ever been and when my team finally breaks its drought I will celebrate safe in the knowledge that it was done through hard work, savvy recruitment and good sportsmanship and NOT through arrogance, illegal activities and bags of cash underneath tables. To me, that is just un-Australian and indeed truly ‘tragic’.
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February 18th, 2009 at 9:47 am
It is pretty hard to argue your point Deano but you do get the impression that the AFL did go a bit too soft on Carlton back in 2002 when you look at how much they cheated the system.
As a West Coast supporter I was angry at the way they poached Judd with promises and ‘out of salary cap’ benefits (Vissy etc).
They did though pay for their crime and no matter what they did, you cannot kill of a club forever for past presidents & club officials mistakes.
Also lastly sorry to say this but they’ll win a Grand Final before the dogs. A winning culture (Eagles, Bombers, PA also have one) can be a dangerous thing as it means you over look ‘problems’ & issues (WC drugs problem etc) so you can win. While its dangerous they will win more Grand Finals and be more successful than the more ‘sportsmanship’ clubs like you poor suffering Dogs & St Kilda fans.
Great first feature article and I look forward to reading more
Jermayns last blog post..Groan, its Valentine’s Day
February 18th, 2009 at 5:56 pm
Jermayn you make a valid point. Sometimes success comes at a cost, ie Let’s look the other way, no one will notice type of thing.
I think that Carlton got away with a slap on the wrist. As was pointed out above, the cats did it without top 5 draft picks (although a couple of handy father sons), so I would say they could have done the same but taken a little longer. We should all wait our turn.
February 19th, 2009 at 10:11 am
Thanks for your comments Anthony and yes you are right. Carlton and Essendon over looked their salary cap issues because they wanted to win. West Coast over looked their drug issue (was an issue back in the early 90s) and Sydney and Brisbane over looked their stars antics while they were winning (Sydney: Davis & Hall Brisbane: Aker).
But why? Why should we just wait our turn? If you can slightly bend the rules and get a Premiership a few years early why not. Most fans and sponsors do not care about ethics but rather winning.
Thanks for your input Anthony and I hope to see more of you on Kick2Kick giving us your views etc
February 20th, 2009 at 1:53 pm
Essendon’s salary cap issues, Jermayn?? Sorry, apart from that loudmouth Elliott barking that the Bombers had ‘cheated’, what were these ‘issues’? It was the loudmouth’s disregard for propriety that landed his supposedly beloved club a couple of wooden ornaments. Hardly a reputable source.
aussierulesblogs last blog post..Maxwell decision a shocker
February 20th, 2009 at 2:27 pm
Essendon have actually been investigated twice for salary cap breaches…
1) In 1999 Essendon was fined around $280,000 for salary cap breaches between 1992 and 1996. The Bombers were excluded from the first two rounds of the 1999 national draft.
2) In 2002 the breaches related to internet agreements for James Hird and Matthew Lloyd.
February 20th, 2009 at 3:45 pm
i have to agree with anthony, we should all wait our turn. bending, breaking it is the same thing, cheating.
February 21st, 2009 at 10:36 am
This is not cricket, its not a gentlemen’s game, why should we have to wait our time to win a premiership?
February 21st, 2009 at 1:56 pm
because some clubs believe it or not actually play by the rules. the pain your club experienced in losing Judd and Cousins has been going on in my club for decades. think of names like Dempsey, Quinlan, Round, Templeton Wilson and Hardie(all brownlow medallists) our inspirational skipper in the 80′s Jim Edmond, Murray Rance all the way through to Nathan Brown’s effort a few years back. it is so hard to keep your champions when you have a losing culture. can you honestly tell me that losing Roos, Osborne, Pert and Lyon in a short period of time didn’t all but bury Fitzroy. Supporters of teams with a successful history honestly have no idea what it’s like to go through decades of hoping and praying that your team will contest in a grand final, let alone win one.
February 21st, 2009 at 2:10 pm
i remember watching the Lions beat the Bombers in the 2001 Grand Final and laughing at the Essendon supporters crying hysterically in the crowd. a year earlier they won their what 14th or 15th premiership!! give me a break!! i am 28 yrs old and have not seen my team in a grand final and my father was 4 when we played in our last one. That’s 2 generations of grown men still waiting for a flag, now that is pain my friends…
February 23rd, 2009 at 8:21 am
While I know how hard it is (my lil brother goes for the Dogs), I think you can turn the culture of your club around and you should never be satisfied with the current culture. While I dislike Carlton I have to admire the fact that they were fast becoming a basketcase of a club but through ‘tanking’, recruiting what they needed (Kruzer, Judd etc) they have turned their 2002-2007 loosing culture around.
I do not know or remember much about Fitzroy or even the 80′s in regard to who you lost etc (do remember Brown) but I think what has not helped the Bulldogs has been their recruiting. Aker was a bum pick up, along with Street, Hudson etc, Cordy, Grant and Wood look good but they should have picked up key position players (KPP) a few years ago and if they did. imo they would be up along with Geelong and Hawthorn playing grand finals.
February 24th, 2009 at 3:29 pm
aker was not a bum pick up. the guy is all class on the field and more importantly is a winner, same as Hudson, he came from a winning culture at the Crows and it has rubbed off on the younger blokes. everyone thinks we need a big key position forward but can i remind you that we were the second highest scoring team in the comp last year with an even spread of goal-kickers. Our problem has been our intensity and hardness at the footy, we went some ways towards rectifying that last season and if we can improve these areas this season we will be right up there again.
February 24th, 2009 at 5:17 pm
In the regular season yes but what about the finals? Finals football is such a different game. I bet you, the Bulldogs were not the 2nd highest scoring team in the finals..
Finals means a lot more pressure and less time to kick the ball perfectly etc, so at times all you can do is pump the ball deep and hope for your KPP to take a mark and kick a goal. The Dogs did NOT have this and it cost them.
You look at the Eagles for example during 2005 – 2007 and they were the same and that if they had a quality forward, they could easily have beaten Sydney in 05 and in 07 they lost their finals by less than a goal (inc a draw). If Lynch, Hansen or even Fev could have kicked a mini bag they could easily have played in 3 grand finals in a row.
February 24th, 2009 at 5:53 pm
so was it Franklin and Roughhead that won the game for the Hawks in the GF? NO. It was their evenness all over the park. The Dogs could have had Franklin, Fevola and J.Brown in their team against the Hawks in week 1 of the finals and they still would have been smashed because they played piss weak all over the ground. Against the Cats they had a dip and played some of their best footy for the year. The fact was that Rob Murphy took 16 marks as a lead up CHF and butchered the ball going inside 50. Plus we kicked poorly at goal when we had control of the game in the 3rd and early part of the 4th quarter.
Brisbane have Brown and Bradshaw and missed the finals, Carlton have Fevola kick near on a ton and they too miss the finals, i know which forward line i would rather have…
February 25th, 2009 at 8:04 am
@ Deano:
Yes having a great KPP does not guarantee finals as you still need the ball delivered down there (Freo’s problem).
This is true that Franklin & Roughead did not ‘win’ the game but with the knowledge that when under pressure all you have to do is pump the ball down into the forward line does help. As if your having a bad (kicking) game like Murphy (your example) you do not have to pin point the kick to a 6 foot player but can bomb it long to a marking 6.5 foot player and rely on his marking abilities to make your kick look good.
February 25th, 2009 at 2:55 pm
which brings us back to your earlier quote about finals football and the pressure it creates. You simply can’t kick the ball in the air and hope that a big bloke is gonna mark it. The pressure that sides like Hawthorn and Geelong put on sides in the back half is enormous they employ zones and have loose men and third men in at contests. any kick that is not on target will be swept away with ease. The dogs were brilliant at exposing Hawthorn’s rolling zone when we smashed them down in Tassie. unfortunately we couldn’t reproduce that type of pressure in the finals when it really counted
February 25th, 2009 at 3:32 pm
Yes what you say is correct but when your stuck and the only option is to bump the ball in long, its better when you have someone who can take a mark. It is harder to mark a ball against 3 or 4 players but its easier when your 6.5″ than 6 foot.
I think we will never agree on this, maybe it will be worth doing some research on all premiership winning teams in the last 10+ years and see how many goals, marks etc their KPP got.
February 25th, 2009 at 4:49 pm
don’t get me wrong champ, i’m not saying i wouldn’t love having a bloke who was 6ft 4 and marked everything that came his way but i think a lot of people over-rate it. in the’97 prelim we had Grant(10mks,2goals), Darcy(11mks) and an on-fire James Cook(6goals) and got done by a Crows forward line led by Jarman and Smart. The Following week against the Saints they had Jarman and Shane Ellen do the damage and won the flag
btw did you see how much damage GAblett JNR did one out at full forward,scary…
February 26th, 2009 at 9:59 am
True that it is not always the case, I would say Adelaide in 97 and 98 are probably the only team to win a premiership that did not have a key forward over 6 foot something.
March 16th, 2009 at 11:49 am
Typical bulldogs supporter it’s clear your just bent about the lack of premierships this is a major sport as with all major sports money talks and everyone else can run a marathon don’t bitch just support your club and one day your support will pay off with a nice shiny cup maybe one day if not follow the blues they’re bound to win another premiership soon
March 17th, 2009 at 8:20 am
and your comment was typical of an arrogant carlton supporter. actually i thought it was a balanced piece that covered the lack of success from many clubs, not just my own. Will be interesting to see how you so called power clubs go now that you can’t cheat the system, but then again you will always have tanking. as was observed the competition has never been more competetive or even. it has been nearly a decade since one of the big four has won a flag and there has been 6 different premiers in the last 6 years. anyone has a chance of winning, including your Blues but at least this time it is fair for every other team.
March 17th, 2009 at 8:47 am
Not when you pay players outside the salary cap with incentives from dodgy companies.
All payments/ incentives/ promotion deals imo should included in the salary cap.
April 22nd, 2010 at 5:49 pm
I have just read the posts above and think you guys talk a load of waffle. How can you make judgments without the fact?
How much did Carlton pay Silvagni, Brown, O’Reilly & Bradley??? Unless you know this fact you are all just waffling like fools.
The AFL did not disclose the extent of the breaches that justified a $987,000 fine plus other sanctions. What a joke. We need full disclosure to the public
The Melbourne Storm just forfeited 2 premierships and has to pay 1 million for disclosed breaches of $1.7 million. I want to compare this with an AFL precedent to know if its fair but fat chance as the AFL kept tight lipped about the Carlton breaches.
What a big fat joke !!!
April 22nd, 2010 at 6:42 pm
@David Bean,
‘I have just read the posts above and think you guys talk a load of waffle. How can you make judgments without the fact?
How much did Carlton pay Silvagni, Brown, O’Reilly & Bradley??? Unless you know this fact you are all just waffling like fools.’
Yes you are right, all we have is speculation just like everyone who has ever spoken about this issue. You would think that the breaches would be somewhere in the vicinity of the fine that was issued to them…but as you said who knows???
To label us waffling fools is a bit harsh when you consider that we are just a bunch of ordinary people who like to talk a bit of footy. The great thing about the internet is that it allows people a voice to express their concerns/grievances…I made my case in the feature article, stated ALL the facts that are available and formed an opinion of how I think Carlton should have been dealt with…simple as that. If you didn’t like it or thought I was ‘waffling’ I don’t really care. I won’t be losing any sleep over it…I had my say and stand by it.
April 22nd, 2010 at 8:03 pm
@David, so whats the biggest waffle? Us having a discussion or you having a whinge? Seriously, enjoyed your first comment on Kick2Kick as its something different.
April 22nd, 2010 at 9:22 pm
I love how facts are twisted about Carlton’s salary
cap punishments. This article mentions cheating from 1994-2001, but we were punished on all seperate occasions for minor infringements in the 90s (even those poor downtroden Doggies got a fine or two).
We were made an example of in 2002, the AFL had an axe to grind with Elliott more than anything and set the club back massively. The stipulations about how we should have been punished is ridiculous and is plain jealousy of our past success. The AFL is an equal playing field and suggesting we should be punished more severely because of our successful history is completely non-sensical.
Another myth – only Carlton tanked. We did in 2007 correct, but prior to then no, unless you felt a team comprising of Corey McGrath, Morrell, Deluca, Livingston, Sporn, French etc was capable of greater things.
Other obvious examples of tanking:
1999 – Freo & Collingwood
2003 Melbourne
2004 Western Bulldogs
2005 Collingwood & Hawthorn
2008 West Coast (2nd round pick only)
2009 Melbourne
Hate us as much as you like but get the facts right, we were never guilty in a premiership year (only Essendon of 93 have been guilty of this). So the fact remains Carlton have 16
legitimate premierships to the Bulldogs 1.
April 26th, 2010 at 9:38 pm
@Alex, Aahh, Show me an honest and humble Carlton supporter and I will show you an Irishman who doesn’t know how to drink!
How deluded you are…Your club was fined 50k in ’94, another 44k in ’99, 125k and lost draft picks in ’01 for infringements re the ’99 season (a GF year) and finally the 987k and two years worth of lost draft picks in ’02. But you are right, all the facts are twisted and the big, bad AFL was out to get you…I mean you guys didn’t even cheat or break the rules at all.
I never said you should be punished for your ‘successful’(your words, not mine) history. I actually said that you shouldn’t have been rewarded for finishing on the bottom when it was clear that after being excluded from drafting for a few years (for cheating) that this was always going to happen. The AFL essentially punished you for cheating and then gave you priority selections to achieve an almost instant re-build. Teams like Adelaide and Geelong have never breached the rules nor had priority selections and I can’t think of a top5 draft pick between them in the last decade yet have managed to build lists capable of competing deep into September. Surely Carlton after years of deceit and rule breaking should have been forced to do something similar. But I do not expect you to understand this. Only a human being capable of reasoning, logic and a sense of fairness and equality can be expected to grasp that…clearly values you don’t possess.
Re; the tanking statement. I won’t speak for supporters of other clubs I’ll leave that for Jerm(wce), Tony(coll) and Michael(fre) but as far as mentioning the Dogs…it does not surprise me, it just re-iterates my thoughts on how inept you are mentally. The Dogs played finals for 6 of the 7 seasons between ’94 and ’00. After drafting poorly and attempting to ‘top up’ in these relatively successful years the Dogs began a slow slide down the ladder. They missed the finals in ’01, lost the first 4 in ’02 before recovering to finish at 11/11. The coach moved on and under a new head man the Bullies won only 3 games in ’03 and 5 games in ’04 after being 3/8 at the halfway mark of the season.
What you are calling tanking is actually called regressing. What goes up must come down. The Dogs were down from ’01 to ’05 with ’03 and ’04 being the darkest years. Hardly tanking but you know what? I am going to take your word for it because after all you do follow the team that is most adept at it. In fact it probably makes you an expert on the matter.
I hate to burst your bubble but jealousy is not the word that comes to mind when i think of the CFC. Far from it actually. I could not think of anything worse then following a club drenched in filth and corruption. Your delusion towards the fact that your club is anything other than one built on bullish behaviour on and off the field, using deceit to buy and coerce players and an unwillingness to play by the rules – all the while looking down their noses at every other club in the league – shows just how arrogant and small minded the the average Carlton supporter is!
The destination is only as good as the journey champ and I wouldn’t be swapping my teams journey for anyone’s. We may only have one premiership but we are proud and strong and honest and humble and survivors. All adjectives which are NOT synonymous with your pitiful club.